tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post2747476217732844366..comments2023-12-15T03:19:54.867-05:00Comments on It's Not Part of the Game...: Putting The Best Talent On The IceAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06422548471006288988noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-53907647462862420592013-02-26T11:11:47.178-05:002013-02-26T11:11:47.178-05:00If I am to be expected, as a fan, to spend over $1...If I am to be expected, as a fan, to spend over $100 per ticket plus parking, exorbitant refreshment prices, etc. to attend an NHL game, then I absolutely expect to see the best players in the world including especially the top scorers (from both teams). <br /><br />I work hard for my money, and when I spend my entertainment dollar on, let's say, Blackhawks-Penquins tickets weeks or more before the game, I don't want to discover that I won't be watching Hossa, Toews, Crosby, etc. that night because Raffi Torres put them out of commission for that game (and others). Injuries are one thing; injuries from goons and cheap shot artists is another.<br /><br />If players subject to supplemental discipline had to sit out as long as the player they injure plus additional time for the cheap shot act itself, retaliation a la "the Code" might not seem necessary to a rational team that wants to win hockey games.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-62280014651086286612013-02-17T01:59:07.968-05:002013-02-17T01:59:07.968-05:00The attitude that "dispatching" the oppo...The attitude that "dispatching" the opponent's top scorer is helping your team is ultimately part of the problem.Iain Fyffehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10700943806242207382noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-83418355588603945312013-01-23T13:48:26.345-05:002013-01-23T13:48:26.345-05:00I've very much enjoyed reading this blog, as i...I've very much enjoyed reading this blog, as it is very informative, so thank you for writing it. <br /><br />The biggest hurdle I see in implementing a plan with such stiff consequences (full game for any fight, supplemental after 5 fights) is that there simply aren't 700 players that have NHL caliber talent and are mature enough to play in a fast physical league. Sticking with Lucic, let's say the Bruins play the Sabres. Regier knows he needs a physical game to match up against the likes of Lucic, Marchand, etc. so he dresses John Scott instead of Adam Luke (who is apparently still shying away from contact down in Rochester). Scott gets caught out on the ice against the Lucic/Bergeron/Seguin line and does anything he can to keep Seguin off the puck, accidentally hitting him in the head unnoticed by the refs. Even if the Shanaban comes down on him, Scott helped his team by dispatching a top scorer, unintentional though it may be. So Lucic will probably deem a fight as necessary to show that the Bruins can't be pushed around like that, but you're now asking the Bruins to be down two 60 point scorers to the Sabres being down one John Scott, and you've inadvertently rewarded the Sabres for dressing a goon. I'm all for increasing the penalty of fighting, not at the cost of handcuffing players that serve multiple purposes, the same way I wouldn't advocate a one game suspension every time a pitcher throws a ball inside in baseball.<br /><br />The place for increased penalties, possibly even instant game misconducts, is in Juniors. As you've mentioned, a lot of Junior Hockey Leagues are trying to crack down on fighting as a safety precaution. If players can see at an early age that dropping the gloves is not a ticket to the NHL, but rather an adjunct to an already high skill level, I think we would see a sharp decline in less meaningful fights between bit players. The trouble in the present is that there is no way to distinguish punishments between players with a role in their team's strategy and those sent on the ice as every fan just prays they don't screw up.ThirdLineHeronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-4465674372807245792013-01-23T12:44:34.647-05:002013-01-23T12:44:34.647-05:00TLH - Your responses come across as well-thought o...TLH - Your responses come across as well-thought out and I think they add value to the site. It's better to collect a wide variety of opinions - as long as it's civil and contributes to the discussion.<br /><br />Although I advocate the elimination of fighting I would be the first to admit that it would be impossible, just as it still exists in baseball, basketball and football despite stricter penalties. I would prefer to see an immediate game misconduct for a fight and perhaps additional discipline when a player has accumulated 5 fights. That would put an end to the enforcer who is put on the ice for the opening face-off for one reason. Teams would be a lot less inclined to waste a roster spot on those roles and instead use real hockey players. But players like Lucic wouldn't disappear and if they feel a fight is really, really necessary then they will drop the gloves knowing the consequences. Under those rules we would see more hockey and less meaningless fights that have nothing to do with the actual play.<br /><br />Games would have to be called much tighter, as they are in the playoffs, so that players know a cheap shot will send the opposing player to the penalty box. A lot of fights are a symptom of cheap shos that are not called and eventually the enforcer is sent out to exact revenge.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06422548471006288988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-81789498938980006432013-01-23T12:08:56.853-05:002013-01-23T12:08:56.853-05:00I hope it doesn’t come off like I’m just here to c...I hope it doesn’t come off like I’m just here to cause trouble. I don’t fully understand the strongly antifighting stance taken by many people, I’m here to learn more about it, using my evidence for fighting (I do strongly support keeping fighting in the NHL, if you hadn’t noticed) as counterargument. I’ve seen a lot of the statistics you’ve presented, but I disagree that they demonstrate fighting as a detriment more than a benefit. They absolutely support that goons and players who are strictly enforcers detract from their team, and on that point I absolutely agree with you. However, the statistics only support that players like Cam Janssen and Stu Grimson don’t belong in the NHL. My counterarguments attempt to support that players like Marty McSorely, Milan Lucic, Brandon Prust, and others who contribute more than fist throwing, but throw fists quite well, are still very valuable to their teams.<br /><br />There’s no doubt that both of us are only presenting opinions, but in two of the cases you mention, you are talking about bringing a player that may not be ready for the speed and physicality of the NHL and, basically throwing him to the dogs. Consider Nino Niederreiter of the NY Isles. He was too early in his development and has only contributed one and three points in 64 games across two seasons, and was (if you believe in advanced stats) the worst player in the league last season. Although his skill set was greater than the John Scott/Ben Eager types (Bordeleau is somewhat of a different case), he brought far far less to the Islanders when called up than they can bring to the Sabres/Oilers. If I were an NHL GM, I would put Hamilton and Malone in Niederreiter’s category and would likely have made the same decisions. ThirdLineHeronoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-54462587049533145602013-01-22T19:42:42.688-05:002013-01-22T19:42:42.688-05:00I agree it's not a complete picture, and I sta...I agree it's not a complete picture, and I stated that it was not an indepth study. I took a few hours and quickly reviewed some of their prospects in the system. Even with that quick look I think I was able to provide solid statistics that the teams are leaving better hockey players off their NHL roster in favour of fists. <br /><br />Most of what you post above is your opinion and I respect that. But they are not facts. And the premise of the post was that teams, for whatever reasons they feel are legitimate, will leave better hockey players in the minors to make room for a 4th line or occasional role player. I don't doubt that GMs and Coaches believe that a designated fighter is needed, because they have come up in a system and culture that promotes that. But I would be more inclined to believe in that strategy if there were any facts that would support it. Unfortunately all you get is percpetion and opinion. Every fact based study that I have done or posted about, or read on other blogs and media sites, demonstrates that fighting hurts teams more than it helps.<br /><br />BTW - I appreciate your comments. I don't mind opposing views and in fact welcome them, as long as they are well articulated and civil. <br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06422548471006288988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3692148900807779.post-22626038725185368672013-01-22T00:46:49.209-05:002013-01-22T00:46:49.209-05:00But as in past articles, I don't believe you a...But as in past articles, I don't believe you are giving a complete picture of your argument:<br /><br />Patrick Bordeleau vs. Brad Malone: How sure are you that Malone is really ready for the NHL level of play? Slightly over 0.5 PPG at the AHL level is definitely good, but not an indisputable sign of current/future greatness. Any player with only one season as a pro has room to improve and adapt, and for a borderline player the AHL is a better place to earn that confidence. In addition, Bordeleau's first game? In his (limited) ice time, he had two shots and generated a scoring play for McLeod for a plus one rating. <br /><br />John Scott vs. Adam Luke: By far the most difficult of the three to reconcile, but any team playing the Flyers I can understand looking for a little extra muscle. This also is on the tail of last season when opponents had free reign to run Miller, and in today's custom Ruff and Regier have decided that having fighters and pests will counteract that. <br /><br />Ben Eager vs. Curtis Hamilton: Ben Eager is a former Stanley Cup winner on a team of young kids. He may not be the role model for them on the ice, but he brings a solid veteran presence to the locker room. A quote from the article you cited indicates he is ready to be that:<br /><br />"Everyone wants an increased role but you have to earn it. After last year I have a lot to earn. I'm getting to be one of the older guys in this dressing room. I have to show a good work ethic every day and do the things that I do — be physical, get in on the forecheck, bring it every game and be there for my teammates."<br /><br />Add into that, as with Brad Malone, that Hamilton is in only his second pro season (with 4 points in 32 games of AHL play this season....), he may not be ready to make the jump. Eager didn't see a lot of ice in EDM's first game, but 2 shots, 1 blocked shot and 3 hits against the Sedins' line is a vote of confidence for the future.<br /><br />Although I understand your point with this post, your argument is flawed when looking at the larger picture, which I think is an overall weakness of the antifighting agenda. There were legitimate reasons to play each of the three players you are concerned about, and legitimate reasons to leave the other three players down in the AHL. <br />ThirdLineHeronoreply@blogger.com